Pete Byrdie

Channel72 said:

Yoda can’t help the Rebels because he’s old and he’s basically just a teacher, not a warrior. The Prequels messed this up by portraying Yoda as a warrior.

As for stuff in the OT I don’t like:

Well, ANH and ESB are probably my favorite movies of all time - but they’re not perfect. ANH in particular has a lot of problems, which is understandable because it was the first movie, and a lot of “Star Wars lore” hadn’t yet been established. But I have to admit, the entire ending to ANH barely makes any sense:

• Leia takes the Falcon to Yavin IV, despite knowing they’re being tracked. She spent the entire movie - even endured torture - trying to keep the location of the Rebel base a secret. But at the end, after strongly suspecting they’re being tracked, she’s just like “well whatever hopefully it all works out.”
• You can argue she did this strategically, to lure Tarkin and the Death Star to Yavin IV, so the Rebels would have a chance to take it out - but from her perspective this would have been a completely insane gamble. She didn’t know if the Death Star plans would reveal any weakness, or even if they did, whether it was something they could discover and figure out how to exploit in the few hours they would have before the Death Star arrived.
• Even if this was supposed to be some insane strategic gamble on Leia’s part, they still make no effort to evacuate the base, like they do with Echo Base in Empire Strikes Back. The moment Leia arrived at Yavin, they should have initiated an evacuation of all personnel except for the fighter pilots necessary to attack the Death Star.
• And then even after they miraculously blow up the Death Star via Luke’s one-in-a-million shot, instead of immediately evacuating, they still don’t evacuate the base. Instead, they stay around for an award ceremony. It’s unclear why a fleet of Star Destroyers doesn’t immediately show up at Yavin and obliterate the base.

That last point is likely partially a result of ANH being the first movie. With only ANH in mind, we can perhaps infer that the Rebels didn’t evacuate Yavin IV because they figured it would take weeks or months for the nearest Star Destroyer to arrive at Yavin. (Later movies made this an impossible option, as hyperspace travel seems to take only a few hours most of the time - perhaps a few days at most.)

These issues with the Death Star assault likely occurred because originally, the ending to ANH was written without any “ticking clock” countdown as the Death Star comes into firing range of Yavin IV. Originally, the Death Star didn’t come to Yavin at all. Rather, the Rebels just someone know where the Death Star is (I guess it was still parked at Alderaan), and after discovering the weakness they fly X-wing squadrons to the Death Star. I think Marcia Lucas suggested that the Death Star should actually show up at Yavin, which introduces a much-needed “ticking clock”, so the Rebels have limited time and a dramatic count-down before the Death Star blows up Yavin. But unfortunately, this introduces the side problem that it makes Leia look incredibly reckless. I thought of a solution to this once that probably makes everything work, providing both the ticking clock and not making Leia look crazy - but I wouldn’t bother trying to implement a fan-edit because most people don’t have any problems with the ending to ANH.

I do now! Thanks for that! 😉 The only thing that ever bothered me (since childhood) is Leia intentionally leading the empire to Yavin. Now I’ve got to contend with the rebels all smugly having a frankly quite extravagant, almost imperialistic looking ceremony (not exactly your ragtag group of rebels kind of thing) when at any time the whole base could be taken out with an orbital bombardment.

I’m guessing Yavin wasn’t the entire rebel fleet (although it is definitely implied it’s the rebel base), that they probably had a better chance luring the Death Star there and approaching it from behind Yavin (because the imperials had to leave hyperspace on the other side of Yavin because… er…) than approaching it from deep space somewhere where they’d be largely picked off by star destroyers.

I like to think they had a fair idea there was a weakness to be exploited that could be found in the plans. Did Rogue One cover that a bit?

After the battle the rebels are keeping a close eye on imperial movements and know where the rest of the fleet are. I also like to think there are people and droids packing stuff up during the ceremony and that huge hall is just filled with whoever could be spared, and the moment the credits roll someone shouts, ‘Right, that’s it, you’ve had your fun. Pack everything up. We’re outta here!’

I’d honestly always assumed the Death Star animation in Star Wars was just animation, made to look ‘computery’. Curiously, with all the changes Mr Lucas has made to the original, that often look like out of place CGI, how he hasn’t changed this scene showing this technologically advanced society using primitive looking wireframe graphics is beyond me. Not that I’m calling for such a change. There’s been enough burying of the groundbreaking work of people who worked on the original OT as it is.

Channel72 said:

Interestingly, regarding point 3, in A New Hope Palpatine doesn’t seem to be interested in relocating to the Death Star, and is instead content to entrust command to Tarkin. (But that’s really because at the time ANH was written, Palpatine was an ambiguous political puppet and an insignificant background detail, rather than a powerful evil sorcerer/mastermind.)

Yeah, he was waiting for DS2 to be built with a shiny throne room, squash court and jacuzzi, before packing up his My Little Pony collection for transport. It was already planned, I reckon.

My avatar also isn’t showing. I’ve uploaded it twice, it appears in my profile page, but not anywhere else. It’s not a big issue, just niggly.

Sorry, when I say it appears on my profile page, I mean my edit profile page, but nowhere else.

EDIT Never mind, I’ve figured it out. I just had to delete the shortcut from my phone’s homescreen and enter the site again in my browser.

In my head-canon, I like the idea that the DS2 was always the goal, as the ultimate mobile centre of imperial power, and that the smaller DS1 was what they could produce in the time available to finally dissolve the senate and crush a growing rebellion. I think construction on DS2 had begun with whatever resources were available before construction of DS1 was even complete. I agree with everything that’s been said about how much more quickly the construction would be after the technology had developed and many of the problems ironed out, though. But, at the very least, I find it improbable that the Empire would have left it at one Death Star, and once one had started construction, or even after it had been designed, plans for a second, bigger, better Death Star would already be filling imperial drawing boards.

(Even though destroying a planet completely is utter overkill anyway. But I view the Death Stars more as mobile governing centres than just superweapons.)

Gandalf the Cyan said:

Pete Byrdie said:

My understanding is that George Lucas maintains he intended for the Jabba scene to be in the movie, but they lacked the money to create the alien Jabba he wanted using stop motion or something.

It’s exceedingly likely that Jabba was originally intended to be a human; it’s been covered thoroughly here-
https://web.archive.org/web/20140928112036/http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/jabba.html

According to Paul Hirsh (one of the editors) in his biography, Lucas came up with the alien Jabba idea in post-production, but it had to be dropped due to being impossible to achieve with contemporary special effects technology.

My phone’s protection software through a fit when I tried to follow that link. But it makes sense that Jabba was intended to be human during production. That still leaves us with two scenes that just don’t work together. Oh well! Filmmaking is not always a linear process, and in reality the details of the complications of a movie made half a century ago may remain unknowable.

Channel72 said:

Pete Byrdie said:

Greedo talks as though Jabba has already given up on Han and has already put a significant price on his head.

Shortly after, Jabba and Han talk as though Greedo is just Jabba’s lackey and Jabba is looking for Han to pay up, threatening only then to put a bounty on his head.

I agree with all this. Of course, there are ways to rationalize it. Perhaps Greedo is exaggerating Jabba’s anger level in order to trick Han into handing over all the money he owes Jabba - so that Greedo can pocket it, perhaps after killing Han. Greedo tells Han “If you give [the money] to me, I might forget I found you.”

But I agree the whole thing is still very weird - the two scenes are redundant, and suggest entirely different threat levels from Jabba. But early drafts of Star Wars indicate these two scenes were NOT supposed to be mutually exclusive. Both the Greedo scene and the Jabba scene appear together in early drafts, indicating Lucas really did originally want to have both scenes. The best explanation is that Greedo was trying to pocket the money owed to Jabba from Han. His name is “Greedo” after all.

Well, the earliest drafts of the scripts are all we can go by. Honestly, there was a part of me considering that Greedo’s dialogue was originally completely different, and the scene was repurposed when George couldn’t get the Jabba he wanted. I was actually considering looking again at the scene and figuring out what Greedo’s original dialogue might have been given Han’s responses, not that it would have helped because they could easily have chopped and changed the scene in places.

Sideburns of BoShek said:

Pete Byrdie said:

I’ve been to page 19 of this thread, and realised there’s 96 pages, and I have no idea how to find anything on this forum. So please let me know if this belongs elsewhere, or if it’s already been discussed (it surely must have been).

I don’t think the Greedo scene and the Jabba scene filmed for Star Wars but only included together in 1997 were ever actually supposed to appear together. I think it was always intended to be one or the other.

I use the Index threads pinned up in each section on here.

The OT Index thread has a Character category and also a mini index for Han Shoots First / Han vs Greedo

and these have some discussions on Jabba and Greedo:

George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist… - categories 9 & 34?

Complete Comparison of Special Edition Visual Changes

and most threads on the 1997 and 2004 releases probably have some sort of discussion on the scenes, and the Jabba remodel.
 

There is a search function of sorts; site:originaltrilogy.com jabba or site:originaltrilogy.com greedo

^ from I can’t find the Search function on this site - Is there one? How can I do a search? in General Assistance
 

It is kind of strange putting the 1997 Jabba scene into the film given it mainly repeats information from the previous Greedo. Even Gary Kurtz mentioned it in an interview on it.

Thanks. I’m really struggling to find my way about here.

After I posted, another thought occurred. Almost any dialogue could have been put in Greedo’s snout, and Han’s responses aren’t always necessarily specific. If the two scenes had been intended to be together, I’ll bet there was originally a different dialogue option.

Greedo talks as though Jabba has already given up on Han and has already put a significant price on his head.

Shortly after, Jabba and Han talk as though Greedo is just Jabba’s lackey and Jabba is looking for Han to pay up, threatening only then to put a bounty on his head.

Something’s off about the story at least as I’ve heard it about the Jabba scene always being intended. At least, I think there’s more detail to the story.

I’ve been to page 19 of this thread, and realised there’s 96 pages, and I have no idea how to find anything on this forum. So please let me know if this belongs elsewhere, or if it’s already been discussed (it surely must have been).

I don’t think the Greedo scene and the Jabba scene filmed for Star Wars but only included together in 1997 were ever actually supposed to appear together. I think it was always intended to be one or the other.

They both serve the same purpose of setting up Han’s character and motivation.

They include two very similar lines (“smuggler who dumps his cargo at the first sign of an imperial starcruiser”, “Even I get boarded sometimes. Do you think I had a choice?” I can’t recall the exact lines in both scenes). No script would usually have two such similar lines in two separate conversations in scenes so close to each other. It’s weird.

I don’t know why, if Jabba and his goons were hanging about, they would send Greedo in to talk to Han in the cantina. And Greedo talks as though Jabba doesn’t know Han’s there, but Jabba talks as though he sent Greedo specifically.

If it wasn’t for Jabba’s line about Han frying Greedo, I would be certain they were never meant to both be in the movie. But, although it would be odd, that could be a reference to something that happened days ago off screen.

My understanding is that George Lucas maintains he intended for the Jabba scene to be in the movie, but they lacked the money to create the alien Jabba he wanted using stop motion or something.

That doesn’t feel right to me. Does anyone have more information on these possibilities?

EDIT: And I just remembered another thing that feels off to me. Greedo’s blasting feels like an escalation in his situation from being in debt to being physically under threat. That plays into his urgent need to take on paying passengers, no questions asked. That situation seems diffused by the relative lack of any real tension when he meets Jabba shortly after.

Empire has always been my favourite. I first saw the first two movies as a double bill, and after being thrilled by Star Wars, I was gobsmacked that it could get even better in The Empire Strikes Back. Interesting that the changes to Empire from 1997 are the fewest and least egregious in my opinion. In fact I can think of only a handful that aren’t quite good, although completely unnecessary.

Hi, I’m Pete. I’ve been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember, although I can’t remember what age I was when I first saw Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back as a double bill at the cinema in the UK. I know they were released that way in 1980. But could I really have been only six? I know I already had some of the toys. Much has happened since then, both in my life and in a galaxy far, far away, but the original trilogy has always been part of my life, and some of the more recent stuff has continued to entertain me.

I still almost always call it Star Wars out of habit. I don’t recall anyone really calling it A New Hope until the prequels were released. But if I’m speaking to my nephews who became fans through the prequels, I will call it A New Hope.